About This Episode
Welcome to Episode 011 of the PHW Podcast. In this episode, Dr. Davis sits down with Ian Foley, Wichita’s only certified Muscle Activation Techniques (MAT) specialist, to explore how muscle function impacts movement, recovery, and even emotional well-being. Ian shares his journey from Massage Therapy to MAT and explains his passion for helping people move and feel better for the long run. This wide-ranging discussion includes the differences between muscle activation and traditional therapy techniques, how compensatory patterns can lead to recurring injuries, and the connection between movement, strength, and emotional resilience. Muscle Activation Techniques is a game-changer for athletes, chronic pain sufferers, and anyone wanting better mobility. If you've ever struggled with nagging pain or muscle imbalances, this episode is a must-listen!
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Episode Transcript
Auto-generated from the episode audio — may contain minor transcription errors.
physical problems or even emotional problems. This can just it can make you strong. It can make you feel confident in holding your own self up. Yeah.
Not relying on a therapist or an MAT practitioner. I think this was good for anybody emotionally, physically, spiritually. Just to know how your body moves, how your body receives forces, and how your body recovers from forces. Well, welcome everybody to the PHW podcast. This is episode number 11 and I am very excited to have my good friend here, Ian Foley.
He's going to be talking to us about all things muscle activation techniques. So, Ian, thanks for coming on the podcast. Good evening and thanks for having me. Yeah. So, Ian, tell me I I really You and I have known each other for a long time. you started out your career or when I first came across you, you were doing a deep tissue massage and um you you were really renowned, I would say, because you you built a a very uh you built a very loyal following um in the body department.
And I think a lot of that is that what what I heard people commonly say is you you seem to have just a lot of intuition in your hands. and and so it was really it was kind of remarkable to see you um build that expertise. And so I want why want you talk to me a little bit about what what was that like starting off as a massage therapist and how did that transition go into doing what you're doing today which is muscle activation techniques. Um I've started out doing massage. It's been about 17 years now that I've been uh licensed as a massage therapist. started in Colorado uh as a neuromuscular therapist uh which is different than normal massage therapy. Massage therapy is the basic kneading or relaxing of a muscle. The neuromuscular technique is uh getting the nerves of the muscles to start firing properly so a muscle can fire properly.
Um they work together the the nervous system with the muscular system. And so that's what they taught us for massage school. And so that's what I felt like gave me that hands-on aspect of of not knowing or not being able to just go in and try to release a muscle, but not try to understand why it's tight, but then try to understand and figure out how to get it firing properly. And so after doing massage for 17 years, uh I would have tons of issues come in, neck, shoulder, hip, ankles, feet, everything. uh which after doing a massage would probably feel good for uh hours, days, maybe even weeks if we're lucky.
But then a client would come back two weeks, 3 weeks, 4 weeks later with the same issue and saying, "Let's do that same thing." It felt good for a little while, but it came back. And so we'd do the same thing over getting that same result. And it kind of dawned on me after 15, 16, 17 years is we're doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. And to me that finally set in. That's that's not right.
Right. And one of the biggest questions I always got is like why why are my hips and back like this? Why are why does my neck never get better? And I can never I never had an answer.
It was I don't know. Maybe because you sit all day long. You sit in front of a computer. And uh it was about 4 years ago during an Arctic freeze. I was sitting there when we had a bunch of cancellations and kind of sitting back saying like what am I doing? you know, is this helping people?
Is this helping me? I was spending 90 minute, two-hour massages and not getting anywhere. Again, if anything, causing more stress and issues on my own body trying to get someone's muscle just to relax. So, it made me step back and try to figure out why. So, that's kind of the biggest thing that made me uh start figuring out something different than just basic deep tissue or neuromuscular release is why is this muscle like this in the first place?
That led me to muscle activation techniques where it's kind of its basic symptoms is tightness, inflammation, um symptoms are all secondary to weakness. And so instead of chasing the symptoms, we need to start looking at individuals rather than symptoms. And that's that's where it really got my transition to from massage into muscle activation. Yeah. I mean it it sounds to me kind of like the similar journey that a lot of us have um going into functional medicine is that we we tend to you know prescribe the pill for the problem, chase the symptom. Um we're looking for the immediate uh fix.
Um and you know at some point you got to sit down and go okay where's the root cause of all this? So it sounds like so for you, you know, you you were felt like you were doing the same thing over and over again, but clients keep coming back, same complaints. When you decided what led you to or how did you discover muscle activation? cuz I'll be honest, this is one of those things that you talk to people about and almost no one's heard of it and and there are very few places even around the country I think that you can go and get this kind of um assessment this kind of therapeutic I mean I don't want to call it a therapy but this approach it is a manual technique so I mean it is kind of a modality or a therapy working with hands-on I do have to say I am actually the only certified muscle activation technique here in Witchah we do have about five or six in the Kansas City area, but at least in this area, it's still new and and hopefully upcoming. upcoming. Yeah.
Uh but what uh it honestly it was just googling. I started googling just doing your own research. Just doing research. It it was looking at Thai yoga, massage, uh stretch lab, you know, like doing different things. And the one thing that made sense to me was inflammation, tightness is secondary to weakness.
That that makes sense to me. This is a compensating problem. And so I can take care of a compensating problem all the heck it's there in the first place. That's where the MAT came in.
How long has MAT been around? 25 years. Really? Yeah. It's it seems like it's a muscle testing. This hasn't been It's actually been around for about 25 years and just progressively getting stronger and better.
Well, what's interesting when when you say muscle testing, especially I think in Witchah, we you know, I always have to clarify that there's there the word muscle testing is going to mean different things to different people. And and I know we we do have some practitioners in this town who will what they do with muscle testing is they'll test somebody's strength against a a you know, a supplement. They'll, you know, the way I was introduced to that type of muscle testing was that you were supposed to hold a bottle of the this substance under your chin and then they would test to see almost like a galvanic skin response to that. Like, okay, oh, you're you're weak. Let's change it to a different bottle.
Oh, that's better. And, you know, in my mind, I was just thinking that doesn't make scientific sense. It's like first of all, you're holding a bottle up that has glue, plastic, a desicant, you know, paper label, and um but so when you said a muscle testing, I remember thinking, "Oh, boy." A little bit of an eye roll. But then, you know, my first session with you, I was like, "Oh, no, you're actually testing all the muscles and how they're working against each other and with each other." So, yeah. I mean, I might you might clarify that just cuz I know in this town we do have a lot of muscle testers that aren't doing what you're doing. And it's it's basic A and P.
I it's so powerful but it's so basic. It's attachment points. Point A has got to come to point B to make a proper contraction on one side but then also proper contraction leads to proper extension on the opposite side. And so we are purely looking at just how your muscles properly contract in their specific range of motion.
I'm just looking at how does Jeff's body work or how does a client's body work and how well can you properly contract a muscle from point A to point B. Right. So, you know, my my first experience in doing this with you is I had come out of an ACL uh surgery um after a a motorcycle accident and um I I'd felt like, you know, my quad wasn't quite contracting and and I think what was interesting is you were you started looking at my hamstring and I was like, "No, no, it's my quad." And you were like, "Yep, quads, hamstrings both have to work together." And I was like, "Oh, yeah, that makes sense. They're opposite. They're opposing." Um, what was interesting is you you got into a part of the muscle and uh when you were doing your assessment, you hit a spot that immediately brought me back to when I was 16 years old.
Yeah, that was crazy. That was crazy. So, um, just for our our viewers and listeners, so I I had I was hit again on a bike. This time it was a pedal bike, but I was 16.
I was riding my bike uh here in Witchaw and I got hit by a truck and I I honestly don't remember much of the accident. And uh I remember waking up in the back of an ambulance. My mom was crying hysterically. Uh and then I kind of remember then being in the ER. So my my memory around this is pretty spotty, but I had just amazing road rash down one side of my body.
I remember a nurse taking a terry cloth white washcloth and scrubbing asphalt out of my leg. And then um so it was it was not a pleasant experience at all. But through that recovery process, um, I had developed, um, a a ble a deep bleed inside the muscle, a hematoma, and it it hurt for years. I mean, all the way into college and grad school, I would I would have pain in this area, and then I just kind of forgot about it. And it wasn't until you were working on that, you're like, "This muscle is not activating." And I felt that pain.
And so, talk talk a little bit about through what what was happening. my my body had experienced this trauma like a physical trauma, had a bleed in that muscle and so from what I remember you saying there was I had compensation even back then of maybe not maybe shutting that muscle off or not contracting it properly because of the pain signals I was getting. So do you find that commonly with people? Uh especially here it's um one of the biggest com it's stress, trauma, overuse or injury. Yeah. I mean, one of those, any one of those can completely, weirdly enough, shut a muscle down. The response from the brain telling a muscle sending that signal, it can make that lag, make it not as quick and not as fire as well.
And so, that's where these compensating patterns start happen. When you have trauma to a muscle and it stops contracting efficiently, it's going to pick that range of motion up somewhere else. Yeah. Uh but it's also interesting with that is how the body does keep score is that when you do have trauma or some sort of stress to your body mentally you can forget about it but your body will never forget about it.
And until you sometimes address those areas and really bring that up not only physically but mentally and spiritually that's really until some of the healing can really start taking place. And so it's amazing that that just like you can just bump your elbow and if it hits hard enough and can swell and inflammation and to where your response between your brain and your muscles cannot fire at the same time. It's that easily that oh it's not responding very quickly right now but then over time 3 weeks 3 months 3 years now we've got an issue with your elbow. And so really it's it's almost you know a lot of things I tell people there our bodies are amazing at healing and being adaptive to stress and protecting us really a lot of these things are adaptive techniques and and the body will do whatever it can still to get from point A to point B it will not take its time it will say I need to do this and I need to do it now and I will find the easiest way the easiest path so that's where the compensation comes in and leads to imbalance and weakness in that area and it happens that quickly as As soon as you start compensating and not using every muscle as efficiently as it should be, it's inflammation sets in, weakness starts happening, and it's that quickly. Yeah.
Um, and I I experienced that in a a very powerful way during, you know, when we had Jason on who's my physical therapist, um, he's on the show, we were kind of talking about this, you know, as part of the recovery process. I remember telling him, I think they may have cut a nerve because I can't contract my quad. And he just kept saying, "No, you it's that's the pain. It's shutting that signal off." And I was like, "No, I literally like I I'll work through the pain." He's like, "It's not possible." Like your body just protects you from that.
It's just fascinating to think that that all happens outside of what our mental control is in a lot of ways. Absolutely. And it's it's that signal, that connection from your mind to your muscle saying it's okay to contract and and have control over that movement. And as soon as that trauma sits in, we stop. So tell me a little bit about about how MAT, you know, we we we have I think a unique position here at Prairie Health and Wellness where we have physical therapists, we have um our trainers who at Transform Training and and we have our chiropractors who they're amazing and MAT I feel like really dovetales with a lot of those.
But talk about uh how MAT is going to be different than somebody going to their chiropractor and getting an adjustment. It definitely differs because we we specifically deal with the muscular system. That is our specialty. I'm looking at how your muscle can properly contract and contract efficiently. And what I love about Prairie Health is having the movement center together.
It's it's MAT with chiropractor and massage and and physical therapy or dry needling and your N1 training is where things really start to come. But what I love about uh the MAT is if we're going to a chiropractor to get adjusted, you know, and continuously we want to know like, well, why are my adjustments? So, I feel like MAT is nothing but just a a a gap that has been missing. Yeah. In the systems. Uh if you look at all these words muscular, skeletal, digestive, nervous, the end of it is always system.
Mhm. All of us share even the first word is different but everything beyond that is we're a system. It's all the same. Chiropractic, you know, works with the skeletal system, staying in alignment, massage, releasing the muscular system, but what about the activation?
What keeps everything moving and moving efficiently? And so um it differs because what we do is look at not getting things to relax or to stretch out but to become more stable. Uh my biggest thing that I can do is have you understand your own body and have control over your own voluntary movement which uh doing massage in the past you know we relax we passively move all over the place. I usually fall asleep during a massage. I'm not active in that in any mode.
And so what's interesting with this, it's completely opposite than massage uh and even chiropractic. But the end result is your system moving better. One of the biggest things that I feel for inflammation to get rid of inflammation is fresh blood flow. Um as a massage therapist, I was still forcing blood flow.
When I tow and teach you your own voluntary motor control, that is you bringing fresh blood flow, releasing inflammation, and having motor control over your nervous system. Yeah. Uh so it's I just it differs from everything, but it is so connected to everything, right? So someone who's never done MAT, can you talk about what what can they expect during that? I mean, obviously it it differs from massage.
They can come in distressed in comfortable clothing. Uh they don't have to get undressed. It's similar to what you would be how you would be dressed if you were going to have a physical therapy session. This is more geared towards a workout than anything. Um you are pushing, pulling in different angles and ranges of motion.
Um so if anything, this is something that when you're done, it's like go eat a good source of protein, electrolytes, water, because you just had a workout. And unlike normal strength training where you can just stand up and do bicep curls, uh with MAT, I we're telling you to contract one muscle out of all of your muscles at one time. And so not only is it a a workout, but it's a mental it's it's a mental thing. And uh so what we really try to do is we focus on identifying weak or inhibited muscles that are causing pain or limiting mobility. uh with that technique uh we're able to find out what's efficiently contracting and not efficiently contracting. When we find the ones that are not efficiently, that's where we go to uh make that mind muscle connection and get that neuromuscularly working better. Yeah.
And and know I think what I love is you I you have a passion for learning which is really fun to watch because even even the few uh sessions you and I have had together it's always like hey there's something else. Yeah. There's something new and um one of the ones we've been working on is um my FAS syndrome that I talked about with Dr. Wymer but uh getting that glute to fire properly.
And I think what I've noticed in in the last time we worked together was about activating the pelvic floor. And I think you know pelvic therapist is therapy has really been something that's been growing in awareness. And I I was amazed that from that session of working with you and learning about doing a pelvic contraction prior to grabbing the bar, prior to doing a deep squat, prior to doing anything with that lower body, how much more connected I felt in those muscles and I, you know, I never I was able to do the work before without really contracting the pelvic floor. But but that's uh that was a game changer in just I don't want to say visualizing the muscle contraction but just feeling the muscle contraction really improved after contracting that pelvic floor prior to doing a lift. And I think that's the biggest thing is like you it's with muscle activation.
I love that because we're teaching each individual muscle to fire on its own in its own range of motion because an overall system can only function as good as its individual parts. Yeah, if your individual parts are not all firing, your overall function is not going to be proper. But once you get those individual parts firing on their own, how do you put them together? Uh, as far as a lower body system, the hips, the knees, the ankles, weirdly enough, the pelvic floor also has a left and a right, just like your arms or your hips.
Uh, but they have so much they're muscles. Yeah. And I found it interesting when going through this new certification, it felt like the pelvic floor was really geared towards incontinence or I sexual reasons or something like that, right? Uh in theory, but there's they're muscles. They they have a huge impact on how you squat, how you lunge, how you stand up, um how you breathe, and all those aspects.
And so what's really neat about with what we do is we teach all these individual muscles to fire on their own, but then we teach the body how to use them properly as a system. The pelvic floor is not just a muscle. It is a system of muscles. And when you get the system of muscles to start firing together, everything starts to connect and and starts to communicate together. And so what's neat to hear you say that is not just you going to the gym and lifting.
You actually have voluntary control. You have control of your own movement and what you're doing and know what you're doing and why, right? I feel like so many people just getting into movement is like, "Yeah, I went to the gym today and worked out." Yeah. Did you? What did you accomplish? Did you you know, did do you feel your system and your body working together and communicating properly too?
And so, yeah, uh, a lot of times what we're even starting to do now is is not figure out where also where you're weak at, but also how does your body communicate with each other? Well, that that's a a great point and I think um you know what I would tell people when when I explain to them what MAT is is as I say it for me at least on as an outside observer and a participant it's been you know you assessing the you know function of each individual muscle like you were saying but and then kind of waking that muscle up with pressure um and then saying okay now that you now that you know where the muscle is now contract it and it's like you squeeze and go, "Oh, that's it. That's it." But what's really cool is then when you come back and you're like, "Okay, now let's do that thing on the other side." And I want you to think about that muscle. And all of a sudden, you see the you see them working in concert with each other.
That's our goal. And that balance is it's just it's so like it's so hard to explain until you've experienced it. And it's it's funny sometimes when I have spouses sitting in there and I'll push and be like, "Oh, it doesn't work." And uh I probably got back to this a little bit or you said before uh MAT is all about trigger point sort of therapy. Uh it's not working with the muscle belly. We're going to the attachment points, the origin, the assertion saying origin.
You've got to come to insertion when we tell you to. Um so that's kind of the technique and the method that we use as far as like well what do you do when we find a weakness? We go to that muscle, emphasize its range of motion and connect it to its brain via like a an actual pressing on those points which kind of resembles a massage but not as relaxing if you No, it's not a relaxing at all. In fact, I tell people you should probably practice some leas.
It's because when you I think when you go in especially in a muscle maybe that you that is weak or hasn't been used much. I mean, I I wouldn't call it pain, but it is a there's a definite signal. It's an intense feeling. Yeah. Uh but what's nice is we get in there and we get out.
It's brief. It is very brief. Uh but amazingly enough, when we when you get blood flow to that area, it's almost instantaneously you're like, "Well, I feel stronger in that area. I feel what I'm supposed to do and I had control over that range of motion that I'm supposed to do." Right? And so it's uh again with some of this newer stuff we've been learning is is not only just teaching those individual muscles but then uh teaching them to work together.
Yeah. So who tell me what some of your favorite uh problems are to work on or things that you see commonly um that you have good success with you know for people who are listening who are wondering I don't know is this something that will help me what are some of your favorite things to work on? Everything. I mean that's u everyone is so different. your knee issue is different than my knee surgery than I had. Um, so what I love about what I do is nothing is ever going to be the same. There's there's nothing that I can you can come in and say, "Oh, what do I do for my knee?" And say, "This is going to work for you." Um, and so what I love about my job is just the I hate to use the word trial and error, but I when the body comes up to this point, it's it looks like a CSI scene to where it's this is your knee and we have several different ropes.
Is it your hip? Is it weirdly is it something to do with how your eyes move, how your neck moves, uh, your feet? Yeah. Yeah.
Um, so you have to be a little bit of a detective. It's a very it's a big detective and it it usually takes us anywhere from three or four sessions just to start to peel those onions back to start to figure out. So, um to say what my favorite things are, it's it's hard because constantly every day I am stepping back being like, "Wow, I had no idea that was going to happen." Do do any um particular patient cases jump out to you as um being um just sentinel cases where you're like oh this was one thing where we got a really cool response you know kind of like when we were talking and you know both of us kind of got goosebumps when I was like that's something I've not felt since I was 16 and you're you're always a good story that I do like to bring up because you know everyone here is familiar with you and so to be like okay like this is real uh Me personally, for years, I've been dealing with low back uh and right hip issues. Uh after being and I've done everything, foam roll, stretch, doing everything I could to my right hip, the strengthening, this and that. Come to find out, it was a lot of my left side adductor or inside of my thigh and my left big toe that was not grounding itself, that really does not help with the rotation of my right hip.
As soon as I, weirdly enough, got my left big toe to start pressing down and stabilizing, it never went away. But like I don't deal I don't have to foam roll my hip anymore. I don't have to do the things that I was doing for my low back because it had nothing to do with my low back. That's fascinating.
And so especially with everything is people I would say nine out of 10 people that come in with a knee issue or a hip issue has nothing to do with exactly where it's coming from. Yeah. And so that's something I can go through just everything. And it's not just about helping the athlete, too. I mean, I want to be I know we're talking about weight training and we're talking about um you know, lifting weights, but this is going to be helpful for people just in their everyday activities.
Uh, one of the bigger areas I've I've found that that does help is, uh, I've come across a lot of physical therapist clients who had trouble getting through physical therapy or maybe not getting through, but I went to PT for a neck issue and it it never resolved, right? Um, so this is where this individual muscle testing is, uh, and this isn't any all PT by any means. This is just kind of what I have heard is that for the most part, if you go to physical therapy for an issue, they kind of like, okay, this is a knee issue. This is what you do, right? You you tend to focus on that part.
That's it. Yeah. Uh my job is to detective. We want to find out why that knee issue is there in the first place. Does it have anything to do with your knee in the first place? Checking both sides.
I've done PT myself for a left knee issue and they just stuck to my left knee. That's a good point. Nothing checked on my right side by any means. is not saying that could have been, but there also could be. Yeah.
Uh this is if you have a muscle, MAT is for you. True. Um I've had several different results of this is something that that I use as a monthly this is how I keep my body in in check. Uh we do have clients here. I'm here just for whenever I get hurt to have you kind of put this fire out, get things fired again and going on, right?
We have clients as young as 12year-old competitive dancers. We have clients as uh 80-year-old uh just staying moving just Yeah. just just dealing with normal aches and pains. And so it's just this is for anyone who wants to have control of their own body. Yeah.
I was 40 years old when I finished the certification. I was like, are you serious? This is how my body is supposed to move, but this is also how I, Ian, is supposed to move. Yeah. I move.
We both have arms, but I move different than you do. And so for me to tap into how you move and to see how you move and to work with how you move is that's our our whole goal here too. And so it's for every it's for everyone. Yeah. Some people use it for their life.
Our whole goal is to be part of your lifestyle, right? Is here not every week, but to to to maintain your body to keep it moving. When it does break down, we put it back together and keep you moving. Yeah, but it's it's for anyone who So, it's really ultimately you're trying to drive uh the goal of increasing function. You're really trying to or restore function if it was lost, help people really understand maybe something that they may be missing like again with the pelvic activation in my specific that was something I was completely missing out on. And now, you know, I when I do my deadlifts or whatever, I actually feel the glute contract better, actually have less pain after the workout, which is kind of interesting.
And that connection, it's and uh and so kind of what we do, especially with that one, is you know, exploring the muscles system role in that symptom of pain or symptom of how am I lifting properly? And if we can address that root's cause of that muscle dysfunction. I mean everything we do is movement. Movement is muscles.
You had mentioned something about eye movement and I think that's something new that you've been learning. Can you talk a little bit more about what what you're learning in that area? I think that's absolutely fascinating too is um this has to do with like propricep propriception of just knowing where you are at in space. If I can only look left so far, that's as far as my range of motion is going to stop. That's as far as my body feels comfortable of going.
Even though I have the ability to go far, regardless of what I'm doing, I will stop. And wherever you're stopping, if it's not at that full range of motion, that's where the rest of your body starts compensating and taking and protecting. And weirdly enough, just being able to look around and know where you're at in space, that actually allows your muscles to move freely in those ranges of motion. and actually have that voluntary control. And so we have started working with uh anyone who's dealing with headache or neck issues.
Um a lot of car accidents, whiplash can cause certain ranges of motion. Specifically, like if you're hit from the front or back, uh we've noticed a lot of clients who have headaches, but when we have them just try to look up Yeah. their ocular muscles, which again is it's it's just as much of a muscle as your bicep. sure will not allow their eyes to look up. So instead of being able to do this, it's a lot of occipital and cervical cranking. And so a lot of whiplash might can come from that neck trauma, but it's also just as much as your your proprioception that that just got rocked. Yeah.
And hard. So is some of that is it is would you say is more of a a maladaptive response to the healing process after an accident? Absolutely. Because I mean in concussion protocol and I have not done that but anyone I've talked to that have gone through that it's like what did they do for your eye muscles and it's like not much or if it did it's like stand here look left look right look up look down and just similar to the pelvic floor is keling is important but I need you to be able to move and and keigle I need you to be able control while you're doing that. If you can sit here and just move your eyes, that's one thing.
But I need to be able to turn my head. I need to be able to drive, rotate, look up, and still have control over that. Cuz it's amazing that when we do these test that if you look right and you don't have that ocular motion to the right, as soon as you go right, your muscles lose communication. You lose your strength in that range of motion every single time you look right. And it's kind of the same thing with the pelvic floor. Yeah.
If you don't have that control in a certain range of motion, everything shuts down. So, you're almost making your world around you a little smaller. You can't you can't have that full range of motion to the left and the right. I mean, you're stuck in your little bubble.
And then these are when you'll start to see posture, a stiffness, uh almost like a Frankenstein sort of rotational aspect is because their bubble has completely collapsed around them. Absolutely. You know, there was a there was a researcher um her name is Amy Cuddy. Are you familiar with her work? Yes, man.
She's she's got this I think she's still in like the top 10 of uh TED talks, but she gave this TED talk about um body posture and how your posture uh can influence even your hormone release. And she had um she had a study, if I remember correctly, where she could in real time measure things like testosterone. And she uh I think she's an anthropologist by training, but she she showed that if you if you if you have someone who like curls up and leans forward or even crosses their legs, crosses their arms, that she would see their testosterone go down. And that if they would if they would spread their legs and and stand, you know, doing like a Superman pose, you know, hands on hips, big wide chest, the testosterone would go up.
And I'm think I'm watching this going, "This is crazy. You know, and I think her explanation was more from an anthropology standpoint of like, look, if you if you take up more space, you must be the person who needs to take up more space. You may need to be the protector of those around you. And so you you would get more of that hormone to help you be a bigger person, but it's fast. But those are the things that can happen to your body, how you feel.
If you feel strong and big, yeah, you are. You are. And that's how you perceive yourself and how you feel is is kind of our job with that MAT is I'm not here for your hip. I'm here to make you feel right and move amazingly. And um it's interesting to also hear uh what you're saying with the neck function has been a big thing that we've also been trying to figure out uh with digestion with what you're doing.
Uhhuh. Uh so the vagus nerve runs right through. And so we have a bunch of cervical assessments along that actually correlate with your eye motion is uh not only can you move your neck, but when you're walking around and someone yells it to your left, you know, your neck is body your but technically your body's moving a certain direction while your neck. And so by being able to use your neck with your ocular motions, but then also noticing on how those two things actually correlate with inflammation and digestion around your vagus nerve, uh, can that clog up the communication to say, "Hey, time to rest and digest and not be always activated and looking for the next threat." Absolutely. And so, weirdly enough, and uh with the New Orle, we've been trying to do some some case studies to say, you know, knowing where you're at in your propriioception and having control of this circuit board, does does that actually help your digestive system? Wow, that's f that's fascinating.
Yeah. No, I think it's uh that's one of the things I'm jealous with a lot of people in the in the body department is they they see results right away and you know, in my world, it's like, okay, I want you to make this change in your diet. Come back in 3 months and we'll see what happens. and we'll see what happens this. And so it's been great to have Dr.
Grady here and especially over at the movement center now is we're starting to work with clients and he does a lot of his his not only adjustments, but for me being a a muscular specialist. specialist. Yeah. It's like well have you have you done anything with your SCM or your longus or any of the sternalis muscles? Mhm. When those muscles tighten up, they cause inflammation and cause a decrease in the nerve communication.
Well, that's a nerve communication. What are some ways that um you know, people who haven't necessarily had physical trauma like an accident or a fall, but they've had emotional trauma, how how does that emotional trauma get translated into them having a reduction in an ability to use their muscles? What's going on there? I feel like just like you were talking about with that testosterone um fight, flight or freeze.
Um for me, if I am in a one of those motions, I will curl up. My shoulders will come in, my hands will come in. I'm in a fetal position all day long. Um that right there is putting your body into those compensating positions. So, in some ways, getting the muscles to reactivate to uh be recoordinated can allow that person to stretch back open.
Is there a connection that then tells their brain, hey, now you're safe. You're okay. That's actually exactly what I was going to say. So, back when you're looking at those issues, it's again for years being a massage therapist, I looked at your necks, your traps, your glutes. looking at you as an individual. We're looking at not just to open up your chest, uh, but to have you feel safe.
So, you're even watching like how that person carries themsel when they walk in the room. Do they do they come in with shoulders back, neck up, and feeling I want to see I want to see how you're looking even when I'm when I'm having you contract a muscle. I want to see when I say roll over, I want to see how you do it. Um, because that that is what we're looking for. And it's amazing how many times we'll say here, do this. are like, "Well, it feels the same." Or like, "I can see there's something different." You did a facial gesture there. You did something.
So, even you can come in and say like, "I feel fine, right? I have had some of these issues before." And it's amazing that sometimes again, the body keeps score of everything. Muscles can hold on. And when muscles get tight or stress gets tight, those muscles will hold up.
And specifically working with some of the ocular motor and neck stuff, we've had a lot of emotional release, which we've actually been starting to correlate with our mind and body therapist saying, "Hey, you just saw this young lady. I just did some MAT on her. We we had a different emotional an emotional response. Not a physical, but we had something." What does that have to do with what you're trying to accomplish in the mind body situation? Yeah.
Wow. And so physical problems or even emotional problems, this can just it can make you strong. It can make you feel confident in holding your own self up. Yeah.
Not relying on a therapist or an MAT practitioner. My whole goal is to be able to work on people and just never I would love to never see people again because it would it would mean that they're working, everything's doing what they need to be doing. Um but to get there sometimes we have to go through those those big steps. But I think this is good for anybody emotionally, physically, spiritually, just to know how your body moves, how your body receives forces, and how your body recovers from forces. So, if someone's listening and they they live in an area where they don't have access to a muscle activation technique, uh someone who's experienced in this, um what are some things that you uh you know, some disciplines they can work on?
You know, are you going to recommend that they do yoga? Is that something that helps them understand their body better? Or is it should they be looking for Pilates? I mean, what what are the disciplines or daily things people can be doing to help their own bodies to help them feel better connected with themselves to feel that range of motion improving? I mean, we hear a lot of studies about people who do like Tai Chi and some of the blue zones, you know, in Japan.
They're always out in the park and they're they seem to have this great awareness of where their body is in a threedimensional space, you know, and they're in their 90s and they're doing these wild movements. what are sometimes that some things that you think could be a part of people's daily habit for improving just their their overall function? Um and again what I like about Prairie Health and even what I do is uh we look at individuals not on it's so easy for me to be like hey what do I do for hip issues and Google or YouTube is going to give me 1 million things things right you come see me we can assess you individually Pilates is amazing Pilates is great for some people and some people it's like well maybe you need some actual strength training so by doing this this really allows us to customize what do you need Right. Um, I've done training my whole life and just kind of gone with the flow of what I felt I needed or what I think Google or YouTube told me to do. Um, this allows us like I do Pilates all the time. Well, you're showing a lot of weaknesses or imbalance in this and so this would be someone like we need to do some strength training or vice versa. I do all strength training.
Well, you have like zero mobility. Maybe we should incorporate some yoga, some taichi or or pilates. Uh, and so I love this is because I just we're not just trying to say you got to go strength train, you got to go move better, right? What what is going to make you work the best and most efficient?
We need to even break it down as like how much time do you have during the day? Do you have a family? Uh what what do you have to work with right now? And so a lot of this saying is like, oh, dude, this we figure out what we can work with right now. Once some of those connections start coming, we can start blossoming.
But I mean movement in general I'm I accept. Yeah. It's like well I don't strength train but I do Pilates. Okay we're we're working on it then.
And this is sometimes with MAT it can show someone say yes you are moving but are you moving as efficiently as you should be? Is this workout doing exactly what you think it should be doing? And so we can break things down and actually maybe start adjusting. And so I hate to say like you need to do this or that, but when we get you on the table and figure out how your body is either moving or not moving, we can start saying you need or you should be doing a little bit more of this or a little less of this. Um I have a lot of clients saying I have hip pain, so I sit there and stretch and stretch.
If we test it and needed something else, that's where we like, wow, let's let's start to adjust. Yeah. And so a lot of this is again figuring out who our clients are, right? So, I guess I guess it sounds like if someone's dealing with a problem that they keep having happen over and over again, it's a recurrent thing, uh, or it's a common theme in their injury pattern or whatever, that's really the person who really needs to seek out MAT and try to figure out what that connecting piece is. And you said a good patterns.
We see what your compensating pattern is and then try to reverse that. Yeah. Yeah. The compensation thing is wild. Um, because it happens without you knowing. I mean, it's the muscles that are communicating with each other almost to protect.
It's like they got this one buddy that's hurt and they all kind of pitch in and do things differently and alter the movement pattern without the brain even knowing. knowing. No, you know, again, I know I keep going back to my example, but um you know, after my knee surgery, one of my uh goals was to get back to where I could do squats. I really enjoyed doing squatting. And um I I was excited one day because I went into my PT and I was like, "Hey, look, I can do a squat." And my PT actually has a a squat rack in their uh office, which is unusual.
And so he's like, "Okay, great. come over to the bar and show me. And so, you know, I I did the squat and he was like, "Okay, now I want to see a single leg." And I was like, "Okay." And so, I did my leg that didn't have surgery and I went to go do the other leg and I couldn't do it. And I was like, "How in the world did I just do a squat deep down like I normally do, but now I can't get this leg to work?" And he goes, "Everything's Everything else picked up." Yeah. Everything else picked up. And I was like, "That's wild." And so, one of the things we've been doing now is I'm always training single leg.
That's because I keep having that I try to slip. It's almost like my body keeps wanting to slip back into that compensatory that pattern activity. Absolutely. It's and that's what's neat is finding finding out who's the chicken and who's the egg here, right?
You can have that shift happening, but you know where is it coming from? Uh and I again even breaking things down is I have clients, you know, like I can squat 500 lb. What can you do one leg? Yeah. They can't do one leg 200 lb which they should easily be able to do in theory.
In theory. And so that's really neat to be well to even take experienced lifters. Yeah. And say, "Let's let's break you down because as as much as you know, something's happening." But then at the other end of the spectrum to have someone who doesn't know how to squat or even do a single leg and build that. So I mean, again, even with MAT, it's is from the experience to the inexperienced.
Well, one one of the things that you helped me do is I I don't and and it's funny talking about the the mental and the spiritual. Um you know, I I would often say to my trainer, I'm like, "Well, remember this is my bad knee, right?" And then after we started working out, that knee got a lot stronger. And I remember one day I said, "Okay, let's do the bad knee." And my trainer was like, "You don't have a bad knee. Your bad knee does just as much as your good knee. Stop calling it a bad knee." Yeah. That's And just making that was just a subtle change of saying, "All right, I got you.
I got to stop calling this my bad knee cuz all those other muscles I feel like are listening to that and going, "All right, well, I guess we got to compensate for the bad guy." You know, meanwhile, the knee's like, "No, I can do it." Yeah. Like, I've gone through this now. It's been your It's been your mental Yeah. It was a It was a It was It just sounds so elementary to say, "Stop calling it bad." You know, and I and I even have started doing that with patients when they go, "Well, I can't," you know, they'll say, "I can't do that." I'm like, "Why don't you do this?
Say, I can't do that yet." Right? It just it's like a little twist that says to your brain, "Oh, but one day I will." And we experience that a lot. And uh what's also helped with is our functional movement screens. Yeah. Um saying, "Go into a a deep lunge.
I can't do all the way." That's okay. You can't do that now. Right. You will, but we need to see where where are you at right now?
What can you do and not do? And being able to see those things. But it's and it's interesting to hear that once those injuries happen and that this is my bad knee. Yeah. Is it?
Is it right? Is it? Is it really? Yeah. It's not.
You are the one that's putting your own label on there. And sometimes when you get into this MAT and then actually put your mental and spiritual against your physical and be like, can you do this now? And they're like, yes, I can. Is that knee bad anymore? No, it's not. It's strong.
Yeah. you just jumped a huge gap that it might not have been a physical issue that was holding you back the whole time. It was you telling you like, "Oh, this is bad. I can't do this." And MAT when you when you see it, when you feel it, it makes that connection be like, "Yes, you're right. I am strong." Um, you mentioned the functional movement square and I I want to I want to double click on that because that that's something that I've been really excited about that we've added to we tried to add that to our annual assessment of patients because you know with our approach in the pillars where we're looking at um you know the central pillar of sleep and then we're addressing people's nutrition and movement.
You know we we have annual labs that we do. We, you know, get people in, we measure their vital signs, their blood pressure, but the functional movement score was something that I think was I think it's missing in in every medical practice. Agreed. Because people silently lose function, right? They don't and they get to the point where they don't know what they can't do anymore because they haven't actually tried to do that thing.
And so what what's exciting for me with that functional movement score and again for people who are listening it's a it's how many te how many tests are involved in there's seven total with a grip test. Seven total with a grip test. Yeah. So so we're looking at range of motion.
We're looking at uh ability to balance ability to move through range of motion while balancing. Um, but what I what I love about that is that we get an objective score that someone can look at and then the and then we can say, okay, these are some areas where we have some room for improvement. we can guide that person through, you know, that maybe they need to work with MAT, they need to work with Cairo or PT, or maybe they need to go see Kirk, Kristen, or Carissa and start working on training and really start not just exercising, but like exercising with a goal, which is why I call it training. The purpose, the purpose has to be there. And then they come back and they do that functional movement score again. They're like, "Oh, my number's better." Well, and hopes.
And that's what's nice I love about that. It keeps us in check on the movement scale. Yeah. Um, and I use the example when you're doing everything that you do for the med center is you're doing your blood work, your gut work to see what's working and not working. Right?
Again, I use this all the time. It's like we're treating you, not your symptoms. And so, until we figure out what's efficiently working or not working, what do we do with you? This is how we build your movement column. Uh, how are you moving? How are you not moving?
Yeah. in order for us to start incorporating that. And again, bring it back. It's like all the systems are so connected that what if your movement column getting stronger helps your stress column or your digestive or totally. totally. Yeah.
Uh how do balancing these all out create your overall wellness? Well, and I think that the crazy thing is seeing people's improvement in their mood when they can overcome. I mean, o overcoming is a gratifying thing. you know, us being able to check a box and say that we completed something or that we improved function in an area. You know, I'm a big fan of saying what what you don't what you don't measure, you're not really managing. And so, it's so cool to have that functional movement score is now being a part of our annual assessment to say, you know, we encourage patients to get it done and some do and some don't.
But if any of our patients are listening, like really your functional movement score is something that's as as as important as any other lab value we look at over time. And maybe the most important one It's the foundation of foundation. Yeah. Because if you're not able to move through the world, um, you know, I think that's that's going to really impact all the other things that we're working on when it comes to wellness.
Um, flat out. And again, with that scoring system, what I really do like about that is it keeps us in check. If you do this one and you score X amount one year, you come back next year and it hasn't improved or it got lower or got lower, what what are we doing on our half that is not helping you? Yeah. So, I love it.
It's not We're not here just to be like, "Okay, great. you need some ankle mobility. How do we improve this? And if we don't, what are we doing wrong on our half? Yeah, that's on us to try to figure out problem solve that. Yeah.
So, it is a a lot of accountability on both sides. But then it does allow us to look at individuals saying, "Okay, you're tight here. Is it is it the massage? Is it the Thai yoga? Is it a structural issue? Do you need to get some adjustments?
Is it the training aspect?" So it allows us to look again individuals and try to figure out more of what is it that you need rather than what we just think we need or or even is it a lifetime of emotional trauma that's caused you to retreat into a smaller space to where you're afraid to even stretch out and that might be something again that has nothing to do with our movement center but our mind body center. I mean it's just yeah it's amazing to kind of have all those tools. It's just such an FMS screen and it's just like well again is it it's it's we get to really start learning about our individuals that we're trying to treat and and learn about and be part of their lives you know working here it's I don't want to take care of hips I want to take care of our family. Yeah.
You know and be here for the rest of their lives. Yeah. Well it's it's one of the things that you know I tell people often times they'll say you know well there's an expense attached to doing that thing. I have to go work with a trainer and pay. And and I've been really trying to make the point to people that um they need to not think of this as something that's in the expense category, but in the investment category, right?
Cuz you know, none of us get angry when we have to put money in our 401k, right? Because we know it's going to be there when we need it, you know, as we get older. And and I tell people I think we need to look at you know taking care of the the structures of our body, taking care of our movement, you know, uh paying for assessment that will help us improve our life. That is that is that needs to be seen as an investment that will have a payout later on.
Because again, if you if your 401k is fully funded and your investments are growing great, but you get to your 80s and 90s and you can't do anything, well, good. You're just sitting there watching your bank account grow, but your body's broken at that point. So, so I'm really trying to emphasize to people, stop looking at as a cost and look at it as an investment, you know, and and and I think in many ways that you there's even a short-term return because as your body functions better, you and you have less pain moving through your day. You have better restoration during sleep. You become a more efficient human.
You work better. You know, it's it's an amazing cycle. It really is. I have spent anywhere from about 3 to 4 years of getting treated doing the certification. Uh so at this point I can almost gladly say is like I really don't have anybody who works on me but through all of this investing and hard work I have every tool in my bag that when things start to happen to me I can start to take care of myself.
Yeah. Like so one of the biggest things is again not only the self-awareness but this is an investment for you to take care of yourself. Right. Empowering people. Absolutely. Uh I I have an amazing beautiful wife and I plan to stay and have her around for the rest of my life, but physically I always have to take care of myself.
Yeah. And also maybe strong enough to be able to take care of her, too. We as an individual I don't I want to be self-empowered. I want to be strong enough to get down on the floor.
Yeah. Play with grandkids and get back up and get back up. And so that's that's one of the biggest things is is one of these cool tools that we have is to teach you how to how to take care of your own body. And that's what I I would emphasize I think people need to understand that that this this experience builds on itself. And once you've fixed one area, you might find another area in another area.
But as you start putting these puzzle pieces together, they all start working better and people become more aware of where their deficiencies are going forward and maybe have a better idea of saying, "Okay, now now I know when I need to come back and see Exactly. And and do those kind of things. So, well, um it's fascinating and I would just say for anybody who's never experienced it, I think it's well worth having an assessment and if you don't have it in your city, you just need to travel. I mean, that's you know, that's the tough part.
It's it's a tough thing, but but I think these people need to seek out uh this this kind of therapy is just it's so so important and and it's it's a it's a piece that's it's a piece of the puzzle that I think has been missing for a lot of people. So, we're very excited to have you. 40 years old when I was like, really? This is this what I'm supposed to do? Yeah. So, whether it's a again, you're an elite athlete or just getting new to the gym, just knowing Yeah. your body.
Well, or think think about these teenagers, right, who, you know, they've gone through this giant growth sport and they've got to become sort of refamiliarized with how their movement is. I mean, h how many young high school athletes could benefit by coming in and setting up a pattern now, right? I would have given anything at my age now to have gone back after my accident, you know, at 16 if I had had somebody who's like, "Hey, come in and see me when you're when you know the acute injuries over and the bruising's gone away and the scabs have healed." If you think like weirdly enough, did that injury years ago have anything to do with how you know granted it was an accident, but you can look back and just say, did that same leg years ago because of maybe that miscommunication have start that compensating pattern then and slowly that produced a weakness which gave gave rise to a point where that's all it took. I lost that resilience in that accident. Absolutely.
And so I mean like we could we could really dig into it, but it's amazing how that stuff can happen. And so at any time, any age, this is just something that I feel is just so strong and powerful and if you're really into it, you can just take it. Love it. Well, thank you so much. Um just thank you for all that you do for our patients. I mean, really, I know it's got to be exhausting at the end of your day because I know how hard you you're working you're getting a workout all day long.
Um, so I I really appreciate what you bring to our clinic and and more importantly, I appreciate your just just desire to continue learning and improving and it's so fun to watch that spill over into our patients lives and see them improving because of that. So kudos to you and we appreciate you. So thank you for coming on the podcast. It's been fun.
Thank you. And here's to the movement column. I love it. All right. Thanks,